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Brake drag - not caliper or line - need help

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  #11  
Old 08-12-2015 | 11:22 PM
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I'm inclined to agree with derf. I'd definitely flush EVERY brake line with new fluid through the master cylinder. If that stuff doesn't come out clear, then you have a blockage somewhere. It's been a LONG time since I really had to screw with a brake problem besides just replacing worn out parts, so, kind of like maybe your system, I'm a little rusty. Maybe the steel line going to that wheel got hit by a rock or something and has a dent in it or is maybe pinched. You put pressure on the fluid to activate the caliper and pads, but the fluid won't flow backwards to release the pressure? IDK, I'm just speculating after a 13 hour drive from TN to FL today.
 
  #12  
Old 08-14-2015 | 12:22 PM
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Short update - I have bled the right front line all the way through. Actually put the fluid in a glass mason jar to inspect. Fluid looked the same as the new fluid and no debris. Ran about 1/2 quart through. There has to be something applying pressure or preventing the release of pressure. I noticed there are lots of articles and post on the internet about this problem - however, no one has posted a solution yet - so must be a common problem. Others have mentioned brake pressure control modules??? Can you someone explain this component to me and give your opinion of this could be at fault and how to test?
 
  #13  
Old 08-14-2015 | 12:50 PM
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Also, I was thinking through the history of this car - in the past 2 years, the ABS/Traction/ brake lights would come on and I found that was due to low brake fluid. I added fluid and all was well. This happened about 3 times. I looked and looked and never could find any fluid leaks. This is still a mystery - but I am starting to think it may be related. Next step I guess is to replace the metal brake line going to the problem wheel. This will take me some more time.
 
  #14  
Old 08-14-2015 | 04:45 PM
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I don't know about a brake pressure control module. Never heard of it. Is that similar to an ABS pump? I have read that those damn things can cause problems when they start to go bad. I doubt that it's related since you haven't mentioned any codes, but a few years ago I had a piece of crap Equinox that lit up my traction control, abs and some brake related code that I can't recall. Stopped at an Autozone and had codes read (I was on a trip), and it showed a bad EGR circuit. WTF? Yep, bought a new EGR valve, cleared the passage where it was mounted and cleared the codes and it never came back. Got rid of that piece of crap and got my Chrysler 200. Run the codes on yours just for the hell of it and see if anything shows up. The cars of today are some strange creatures thanks to all of the electronics and computers.
 
  #15  
Old 08-15-2015 | 12:11 PM
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You'll likely need a true scanner to access all the codes stored in the different modules of the car. There are codes other than Pxxxx codes. There are B codes, U codes, P codes and C codes.

See the Awesome attached thumbnail pic attached.

(Goalie -- we have to sticky just the pic)

It IS possible in theory that by letting the system get so low on fluid, the abs passage for that wheel got fubar ed and is not passing fluid correctly. It is my LIMITED understanding (AND I MAY BE WRONG AS I AM NO BRAKE EXPERT), that there is indeed a brake pressure control module in your vehicle, along with proportioning valves, the purpose being to regulate the pressure to each wheel such that appropriate braking force is applied to each wheel, which is vital during ABS brake activation in order to stop the car.

Shouldn't this throw on the ABS light during testing at startup? If it's just testing for positive stable brake pressure, then it would not in your case.

THE ABOVE IS A GUESS.

I suggest finding a somewhat remote road where you can speed up and mash the brake pedal to the floor and engage the ABS. Do this about 20 times. Wear your seat belt and be sure you are not in danger or hitting anything or anyone should the car not brake in a straight line.

The above should really flush through the ABS passages and proportioning valves. After each one, get out and check the problem wheel to see if the caliper is stuck.

You know how to release it, so do so and go on to the next run. Also --before starting, note the brake fluid level in the reservoir, and check after every five runs. If it's dropping and there's no leak, it may be refiling part of the ABS chamber (guess)

TRY THIS AT YOUR OWN RISK

Bring along the wrench and some new brake fluid and a catch can in case the fluid level drops in the reservoir OR you end up needing to release the pressure at the wheel via the bleed valve (into a recovery catch can, not onto the ground
 
Attached Thumbnails Brake drag - not caliper or line - need help-obdii-diagnostic-codes-format-guide.jpg  

Last edited by derf; 08-21-2015 at 10:25 AM.
  #16  
Old 08-19-2015 | 02:54 AM
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I've been a shade tree mechanic most of my life and successful at it. Derf is correct in saying some thing is not allowing the pressure to release the caliper so that it will move away from the rotor.
Basically on disc brakes pressure is applied to the caliper when the brake pedal is pushed down and then released when the foot goes off. The rotor which was squeezed by the pucks in the caliper is ever so slightly not exactly true and the movement of the rotor causes the pucks to retreat back into the caliper and the slight out of round kind of taps the pucks back out of the way. And you continue down the road. If the pucks do not retreat back into the caliper due to a mechanical problem such as rust or debris they will drag on the rotor and act as you describe, the brake is still applied and it will heat up the rotor and as the rotor heats up it will drag more causing the problems you have described up to and including warping the rotor causing a vibration. New Calipers should have solved the problem if it was mechanical and it didn't which points at what ever supplies the hydraulic pressure to the caliper. Ether corrosion in a break line cause a blockage so the fluid can not retreat from the caliper and go back to the master cylinder.
And here my knowledge stops. I do not know on your car where the pressure is generated to apply fluid to the caliper. If the lines are new and free of corrosion it is either in the master cylinder or what ever is between the master cylinder and the brakes on the wheel.
So what I am saying is I agree with derf and ruby and also say? Sorry I don't know what it is either. But it certainly is not what you have replaced already. So good luck
 
  #17  
Old 08-20-2015 | 02:25 PM
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Update - ok I pulled the master cylinder off and found that the brake booster was full to the top with brake fluid. The master cylinder had been leaking into the booster (this is why I never found any leaks in the lines or calipers). I replaced both the master cylinder and the booster. The wheel no longer has any problem! The only thing I am dealing with now is a spongy brake pedal - I will be bleeding the system again this weekend to ensure I have all the air out.
 
  #18  
Old 08-20-2015 | 04:42 PM
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Congratulations on the find and fix. You may need to bleed the brakes a couple of times in order to get all of the air out of the lines. I always used the method of the longest line to the shortest for the bleed. My routine is right rear first, then the driver side rear, right front and last, drivers side front. Usually four pump, hold and release works to rid the air from each line. Check your m/c reservior after each 4 bleeds and top off as necessary.
 
  #19  
Old 08-20-2015 | 06:10 PM
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that's a new one for me.....still wondering why only one wheel affected
 
  #20  
Old 08-21-2015 | 09:34 AM
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While I still consider myself a pretty decent shade tree mechanic I too find this more than a bit fascinating.
First of all I also congratulate you on figuring out what the root cause of your problem was. How strange.
Truth is stranger than fiction the old saw goes.
But to comment a second on Derf's question, that of why the one wheel.
One part of the "new" technology I have yet to have a working knowledge of is the anti-lock brakes which are tied into the traction control.
And this just triggered as I took our 94 SC2 into smog test this week and as the operative stepped on the gas to get the rollers moving on the test machine a blinking light on the dash board quickly said TRACTION CONTROL as you hear the engine labor. You can sit in the passenger seat as an option while testing and I do, so I told the guy to stop testing which he did and pushed the button to turn the dang thing off.
And the test went on.
Some how through the marvel of engineering the mechanism between the Master Cylinder and the wheels can alter where the brake fluid goes when there is a differential in speed noticed between each wheel and what ever the magic box is that controls things causing each wheel brake to be applied as needed based on wheel speed between the 4 of them. I am not sure whether wheel speed is sensed only on the front (you can see a sensor near the perforated disc that is part of the spindle on the front when you pull a tire off) and that is good enough I guess when the wheels are controlled by this thing and I think right front/left rear and the other combination) so why one wheel? How about if things are screwed up due to this leak that the reason only one wheel is that the Traction Control/anit-lock brake mechanism got screwed up too.
No I don't know why, I have never figured out how they work. I bought a Dodge Van from a Junk Yard a number of years ago because at the time it was what I needed and could afford and the anti-lock brakes were messed up. I managed to get enough of it working so that it stopped when I put the brakes on but nothing worked correctly on the system. The sensor lines were broken and who knows what else. I could not figure it out and the internet said it was a problem for that era Dodge vans so I lived with it until I sold it.
Fortunately I have never had a problem with that system so I have not had to figure it out, but based on the fixed (wow, that impresses me) maybe the anti-loc system had something to do with why the one wheel only got affected.
As to the smog test? My 94 Saturn is now old. (2 years old when purchased) and the paint has gone due to the exposure to the UV from the sun so it looks pretty grungy. And as it is not driven that often any more when you open the hood there is a fair amount of desert dust observable and I saw the smog guys looking at it some what questionable as everything in line was spiffy and shiny except this one. And they had to ask how many miles on it because the odometer is broken so the manager had to come over. Twice! When done the paper worked was handed to me and the representative stood there shaking his head and said "This runs cleaner than the managers own car and it passed!" as if it was unbelievable.
No reason for it not to pass in my mind. It has about 110,000 miles on it, everything is in pretty much good shape and it runs right. That made me happy! It's been re-upholstered and I still need to repaint it again, (its on my round tuit list) I can make it work when it's broke but still have no idea how the anti-loc brakes function. (And the windows go up and down in part thanks to Ruby and I found out if you wax the windows they go up and down easier past the swipes on the doors. The rubber has gotten harder over the years and does not flex all that well causing a strain on the motors running the windows)
 



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