It's Burning Oil! OH MY
#1
08-30-2010, 11:18 PM
It's Burning Oil! OH MY
It is not uncommon to see more and more often in automotive forums these days comments about the owners high mileage and long in tooth car of choice, in this case the Saturn S cars burning oil.
There are a number of logical reasons including poor design that this can be attributed to but personally here is mine.
When EPA leaned on Detroit to impove gasoline mileage some bright guy (or gal because this is not gender specific) decided if you recommended the lightest possible oil you can get away with, the miniscule improvement in gasoline mileage might be able to be used for advertisement purposes with out regard to the long term side affects the light weight oil usage might have on engine durability. After all, the factory only has to back it for the length of the warrenty.
Now I am old school. I blew up my first car I owned when I used straight 10 weight oil (state of art at the time) in during the summer, a time that required at least a 30 W oil on something that was 10 years old and had 100,000 miles on it. Why? It was written on the last oil change lable and I did not know any better.
There were oil weight viscosity vs temperature charts then that I never heard of and surprising enough they still exist today, except now they refer to the motor oil equivelents rather than the straight weights of yesterday, although they are included.
So fast forward a bit, learning there is a preferred oil to run as the car ages, is driven in the summer vs the winter, hot vs cold etc. etc. untill you get to todays car where imprinted on the oil cap is the number 5W20. The modern equivelent of the oil I used to blow up my older high mileage oil consuming first car. An Oil that when it first came out was recommended as a winter weight alternative oil.
So what has been used since day zero and is argued about today must be used, the original factory recommended high fuel economy favorable oil on the 10 year old + high mileage cars that are now scattering thier guts all over the road while consuming oil and running hot.
And people are asking what to do about it.
Unfortunatly in most cases, nothing, it is too late. The damage has been done. But what could have been done to prevent the damage which in general is excess wear, stuck piston rings from pistons running hot, valve guide wear, valve seal failure and a number of other things caused in general by running oil that was too light for too long that did not reflect operational variations of conditions that could be compensated for by running heavier oil.
The following artical is a good read. It is one of many, it talks about this a bit and makes motor oil viscosity recommendations based on temperatures.
http://www.aa1car.com/library/oil_viscosity.htm
For my own purposes since 1979 I have lived in the South West where winter temperatures generally are about 50 degrees and summers can be about 100 or so. For the last 15 years in Arizona where winter temperatures are often in the 60's, it can get colder but doesn't except about 2AM in the morning and during the summer it is not uncommon to be over 100 degrees a full 1/3 of the year.
Every car I own runs 20-W-50 except my New Chrysler which runs Mobil 1 synthetic which is 15-W-50. This oil gets installed at first oil change when the car is purchased or when the engine gets rebuilt. Which ever the circumstance. I restore my own cars.
My Saturn was purchased 2 years old and was changed to 20 - W - 50 motor oil at the time.
It now has a bit over 100,000 miles on it. It does not consume oil between oil changes and according to any Oil Viscosity Chart I have seen that compares recommended Viscosity vs Temperature 20 W 50 motor oil is well with in the acceptable range.
I have not had a car consume oil since I left the snow belt and could afford cars that were not all ready trashed.
What can you do?
First, change oil to a heavier viscosity. If things are not worn out to the point oil consumption has increased, it may prolong that point.
If you are already there, it may slow down the oil consumption. Do not expect miracles.
I have on rare occasion, been able to stop oil consumption using an additive such as Z-MAX which might be causing stuck oil rings to free up if used for a while.
But I would not want to bet my life on it.
So other than expensive rebuild, check oil often and add it when needed. Oil is cheaper than a new engine.
There are a number of logical reasons including poor design that this can be attributed to but personally here is mine.
When EPA leaned on Detroit to impove gasoline mileage some bright guy (or gal because this is not gender specific) decided if you recommended the lightest possible oil you can get away with, the miniscule improvement in gasoline mileage might be able to be used for advertisement purposes with out regard to the long term side affects the light weight oil usage might have on engine durability. After all, the factory only has to back it for the length of the warrenty.
Now I am old school. I blew up my first car I owned when I used straight 10 weight oil (state of art at the time) in during the summer, a time that required at least a 30 W oil on something that was 10 years old and had 100,000 miles on it. Why? It was written on the last oil change lable and I did not know any better.
There were oil weight viscosity vs temperature charts then that I never heard of and surprising enough they still exist today, except now they refer to the motor oil equivelents rather than the straight weights of yesterday, although they are included.
So fast forward a bit, learning there is a preferred oil to run as the car ages, is driven in the summer vs the winter, hot vs cold etc. etc. untill you get to todays car where imprinted on the oil cap is the number 5W20. The modern equivelent of the oil I used to blow up my older high mileage oil consuming first car. An Oil that when it first came out was recommended as a winter weight alternative oil.
So what has been used since day zero and is argued about today must be used, the original factory recommended high fuel economy favorable oil on the 10 year old + high mileage cars that are now scattering thier guts all over the road while consuming oil and running hot.
And people are asking what to do about it.
Unfortunatly in most cases, nothing, it is too late. The damage has been done. But what could have been done to prevent the damage which in general is excess wear, stuck piston rings from pistons running hot, valve guide wear, valve seal failure and a number of other things caused in general by running oil that was too light for too long that did not reflect operational variations of conditions that could be compensated for by running heavier oil.
The following artical is a good read. It is one of many, it talks about this a bit and makes motor oil viscosity recommendations based on temperatures.
http://www.aa1car.com/library/oil_viscosity.htm
For my own purposes since 1979 I have lived in the South West where winter temperatures generally are about 50 degrees and summers can be about 100 or so. For the last 15 years in Arizona where winter temperatures are often in the 60's, it can get colder but doesn't except about 2AM in the morning and during the summer it is not uncommon to be over 100 degrees a full 1/3 of the year.
Every car I own runs 20-W-50 except my New Chrysler which runs Mobil 1 synthetic which is 15-W-50. This oil gets installed at first oil change when the car is purchased or when the engine gets rebuilt. Which ever the circumstance. I restore my own cars.
My Saturn was purchased 2 years old and was changed to 20 - W - 50 motor oil at the time.
It now has a bit over 100,000 miles on it. It does not consume oil between oil changes and according to any Oil Viscosity Chart I have seen that compares recommended Viscosity vs Temperature 20 W 50 motor oil is well with in the acceptable range.
I have not had a car consume oil since I left the snow belt and could afford cars that were not all ready trashed.
What can you do?
First, change oil to a heavier viscosity. If things are not worn out to the point oil consumption has increased, it may prolong that point.
If you are already there, it may slow down the oil consumption. Do not expect miracles.
I have on rare occasion, been able to stop oil consumption using an additive such as Z-MAX which might be causing stuck oil rings to free up if used for a while.
But I would not want to bet my life on it.
So other than expensive rebuild, check oil often and add it when needed. Oil is cheaper than a new engine.
Last edited by uncljohn; 08-30-2010 at 11:26 PM.
#3
08-31-2010, 01:36 AM
Hey Slowgls,
If I lived back in an area where winter was a time that snow actually visited me rather than something I could see when I turned the T.V. on, I would do what I always did in the past.
I would run a Summer weight oil starting some time in the spring after the last snow
and
a winter weight oil, selected for an oil change some where around October just before the first snow.
Now to be honest, I have always driven enough miles during the year to go through a number of oil changes and if you do not, an oil change twice a year is really good insurance for a maintainence schedual.
My basis for oil change intervals?
If you read up on Oil Filter life, your basic bottom end oil filter is expected to become plugged about 3 to 4 thousand miles or so. That means it has done it's job and it is time to replace it.
Each level of oil filter have longer intervals between need to change it time and it is reflected by the expense of the filter.
Personally I use bottom end oil filters and change every 3 to 4 thousand miles on everything except my Chrysler which I use Synthetic oil in.
Mobil 1 has its recommended life interval with change the filter and add a quart and on the third filter, change everything.
I am sure other synthetics have the same recommendation.
I use regularly a second level filter and change the filter every 4000 miles and add 1 qt of synthetic. On the third filter, I change everything and start again.
Cost effectively that works for me. You can pick an interval that works for you
but
a winter weight oil and a summer weight oil sure is a workable solution.
Besides as I under stand the seasons in Wisconsin
There are only two,
Winter and Road Repair.
#4
01-07-2012, 11:29 AM
I never had a S-Series twincam burn oil. That said I bought them new. First oil change Mobil-1 5-30 was added then changed eveyr 6k with a Saturn oil filter. At each oil change I checked the water pump and radiator for any signs of a problem. In other words none of my Saturn ever got close to running hot. So was it the Mobil-1 or the fact they never got out of the normal heat range? Maybe both.
PS each one had over 100,000 miles on the odo.
PS each one had over 100,000 miles on the odo.
#5
01-08-2012, 02:26 PM
I never had a S-Series twincam burn oil. That said I bought them new. First oil change Mobil-1 5-30 was added then changed eveyr 6k with a Saturn oil filter. At each oil change I checked the water pump and radiator for any signs of a problem. In other words none of my Saturn ever got close to running hot. So was it the Mobil-1 or the fact they never got out of the normal heat range? Maybe both.
==================================
It could have been one or the other or both. The point though is that as new cars go, many people buy and then trade them off well under 50,000 miles at least at the time of about early 90's which was also the time interval that Detroit amongst others started recommending a light weight oil, lighter than was historically normally used for both summer and winter usages as i remember or practiced at the time. Most of my cars have been used cars, half of them owned in upstate NY and the First half of my life time and the other half in the South West the second half of my life time.
Multi-weight oils were not standard more or less as were detergent oils.
In general in upstate NY it was no uncommon to run 20W in the winter and 30W in the summer on a used car. Which switched to some extent as time passed to a 10W30 in the winter and maybe even year around unless you were doing heavy hard duty driving and you would go to 10W40.
When I moved to the SW and was some what responsible for a fleet usage in the early 80's going into the 90's, They were all new cars and replaced about the time the warranty ran out.
Pretty much it is an I don't care when you are running a car under 50,000 miles and offing it. But high mileage used cars are different animals and light weight oil used in summer conditions aggravates wear no matter how you define it.
When the factory starts recommending a light weight oil, part of it was CAFE gasoline mileage, and the other part is they flat don't care, the warranty is gone and what happens is of no concern.
Do that long enough bad habit become practice.
My book says minimum oil weight in multi-viscosity says 10W30 is a minimum under hard driving in the heat of summer and will work year around on a decent engine.
Move to the hot southwest, the viscosity vs heat index charts of the time say up the viscosity. Running a fleet on a mom and pop small business with hi mileage cars driven hard they were running hot and burning oil .
I made everyone use 20 W 50 because of triple digit daily temperatures, they stopped running hot and stopped burning oil.
I expected it, it happened I have no problem with it.
My problem is my 1994 Saturn owners manual strongly urges 5W30, although it suggests 10W30 is o.k.
But that is also the start of lighten up the oil and get better gas mileage.
My 2007 Chrysler says 5W20 and the dealer tells me that they won't honor the warranty unless I use 5W20. That is not the book I go by.
I use 20W50 because of triple digit temperatures and I can so I do. I use Mobil 1 15W50 in my Chrysler.
I run it year around because the Viscosity vs heat charts say I can. I believe in it, I do it.
But the fact is, the manufacturers are recommending 5W20 now, and there are whole generations of drivers who have done that, and the manufacturer stops worrying about it when the warranty runs off. I care.
And if you check forums etc, including this one, case after case after case of Saturn’s burning oil after about 100,000 miles and by in large the owners are stating they are running 5Wsomething oil.
In my opinion on any car, 'specially used cars with high mileage, they need and should have had for quite some time a heavier weight oil in them to keep premature wear from happening.
Here in the SW. where winter oil has never been run, it is not uncommon to find that something with 300,000 miles on it is still not burning oil.
When I lived back in the snow belt, I was lucking to get a 1000miles to a quart of oil at 1000 miles. Winter and light weigh oil killed engines.
Right now I have 4 cars with either owned since new or I built the motor in them. I run 20W50 in all and nothing burns oil unless it has a reason to. An identifiable measurable reason.
10W30 oil is probably a good oil to run year around almost anywhere when a car is driven with out flogging it to death.
But with 5Wsomething.
I blew up one engine using it, I see to many oil burners using it and technically maintaining a high mileage engine for reliability?
I am under the opinion a light weight oil wears out engines and it does when driven hard.
As to Saturn's over heating?
Other than reasons for it? I don't see a problem with them. They had a problem with the sensors right from the get go. It took some 10 years or more to even get a factory service bulletin out on them. With gauge readings being wrong, the perception of over heating is real. if the gauge says it is hot, it must be, the gauge is right.
NOT
I ran across the tech bulletin some where around 1998 or 1999 on the sensor problems.
Mine also had a bad catalytic converter that took a while to figure out. On a triple digit heat day running as hard as I could between here and flagstaff I have had my so damned hot that every gauge or light on the dashboard read flakey. Never damaged anything. The symptom though was compounded by the flakey gauge reading.
Other than the sensor flaw which never should have gotten as far out of control as it did, 10 years of aftermarket making the wrong replacement sensor while the factory was installing the wrong sensor never solved a bloody thing with it. Mine, which is the best comparison I can make, runs fine, starts good every time. Runs cool when it is 115 degrees driving way above the speed limit with the A/C running hard. But the catalytic converter is now good, the proper sensor is in it giving the right readings but the plastic tanked radiator has split tanks and is running on borrowed time.
If you have been running 10W30 oil the odds are you are not one of the oil burners, if you have been running 5W30 oil, and driven the car hard over time and now into neglect, the odds are you might be.
If your car is one that is using 5W20?
It consuming oil and that is the reason.
As to synthetic. Lots of urban legend on switching. I won't switch my Saturn. Way too many miles to concern myself with he possibility of leaking seals. I probably might run my Mercruiser motor I just finished on synthetic when I install it. But if I don't, I'll use 20W50 dinosaur oil.
I still live where it is triple digits 1/3 of the year and rarely gets below freezing.
To each there own, but it still remains, way too many older high mileage engines are burning oil and today’s machining practices are way too good to blame them. So it has to be using the wrong oil for reasons that seem to be solely aimed at fuel mileage.
One man opinion. And this is mine.
==================================
It could have been one or the other or both. The point though is that as new cars go, many people buy and then trade them off well under 50,000 miles at least at the time of about early 90's which was also the time interval that Detroit amongst others started recommending a light weight oil, lighter than was historically normally used for both summer and winter usages as i remember or practiced at the time. Most of my cars have been used cars, half of them owned in upstate NY and the First half of my life time and the other half in the South West the second half of my life time.
Multi-weight oils were not standard more or less as were detergent oils.
In general in upstate NY it was no uncommon to run 20W in the winter and 30W in the summer on a used car. Which switched to some extent as time passed to a 10W30 in the winter and maybe even year around unless you were doing heavy hard duty driving and you would go to 10W40.
When I moved to the SW and was some what responsible for a fleet usage in the early 80's going into the 90's, They were all new cars and replaced about the time the warranty ran out.
Pretty much it is an I don't care when you are running a car under 50,000 miles and offing it. But high mileage used cars are different animals and light weight oil used in summer conditions aggravates wear no matter how you define it.
When the factory starts recommending a light weight oil, part of it was CAFE gasoline mileage, and the other part is they flat don't care, the warranty is gone and what happens is of no concern.
Do that long enough bad habit become practice.
My book says minimum oil weight in multi-viscosity says 10W30 is a minimum under hard driving in the heat of summer and will work year around on a decent engine.
Move to the hot southwest, the viscosity vs heat index charts of the time say up the viscosity. Running a fleet on a mom and pop small business with hi mileage cars driven hard they were running hot and burning oil .
I made everyone use 20 W 50 because of triple digit daily temperatures, they stopped running hot and stopped burning oil.
I expected it, it happened I have no problem with it.
My problem is my 1994 Saturn owners manual strongly urges 5W30, although it suggests 10W30 is o.k.
But that is also the start of lighten up the oil and get better gas mileage.
My 2007 Chrysler says 5W20 and the dealer tells me that they won't honor the warranty unless I use 5W20. That is not the book I go by.
I use 20W50 because of triple digit temperatures and I can so I do. I use Mobil 1 15W50 in my Chrysler.
I run it year around because the Viscosity vs heat charts say I can. I believe in it, I do it.
But the fact is, the manufacturers are recommending 5W20 now, and there are whole generations of drivers who have done that, and the manufacturer stops worrying about it when the warranty runs off. I care.
And if you check forums etc, including this one, case after case after case of Saturn’s burning oil after about 100,000 miles and by in large the owners are stating they are running 5Wsomething oil.
In my opinion on any car, 'specially used cars with high mileage, they need and should have had for quite some time a heavier weight oil in them to keep premature wear from happening.
Here in the SW. where winter oil has never been run, it is not uncommon to find that something with 300,000 miles on it is still not burning oil.
When I lived back in the snow belt, I was lucking to get a 1000miles to a quart of oil at 1000 miles. Winter and light weigh oil killed engines.
Right now I have 4 cars with either owned since new or I built the motor in them. I run 20W50 in all and nothing burns oil unless it has a reason to. An identifiable measurable reason.
10W30 oil is probably a good oil to run year around almost anywhere when a car is driven with out flogging it to death.
But with 5Wsomething.
I blew up one engine using it, I see to many oil burners using it and technically maintaining a high mileage engine for reliability?
I am under the opinion a light weight oil wears out engines and it does when driven hard.
As to Saturn's over heating?
Other than reasons for it? I don't see a problem with them. They had a problem with the sensors right from the get go. It took some 10 years or more to even get a factory service bulletin out on them. With gauge readings being wrong, the perception of over heating is real. if the gauge says it is hot, it must be, the gauge is right.
NOT
I ran across the tech bulletin some where around 1998 or 1999 on the sensor problems.
Mine also had a bad catalytic converter that took a while to figure out. On a triple digit heat day running as hard as I could between here and flagstaff I have had my so damned hot that every gauge or light on the dashboard read flakey. Never damaged anything. The symptom though was compounded by the flakey gauge reading.
Other than the sensor flaw which never should have gotten as far out of control as it did, 10 years of aftermarket making the wrong replacement sensor while the factory was installing the wrong sensor never solved a bloody thing with it. Mine, which is the best comparison I can make, runs fine, starts good every time. Runs cool when it is 115 degrees driving way above the speed limit with the A/C running hard. But the catalytic converter is now good, the proper sensor is in it giving the right readings but the plastic tanked radiator has split tanks and is running on borrowed time.
If you have been running 10W30 oil the odds are you are not one of the oil burners, if you have been running 5W30 oil, and driven the car hard over time and now into neglect, the odds are you might be.
If your car is one that is using 5W20?
It consuming oil and that is the reason.
As to synthetic. Lots of urban legend on switching. I won't switch my Saturn. Way too many miles to concern myself with he possibility of leaking seals. I probably might run my Mercruiser motor I just finished on synthetic when I install it. But if I don't, I'll use 20W50 dinosaur oil.
I still live where it is triple digits 1/3 of the year and rarely gets below freezing.
To each there own, but it still remains, way too many older high mileage engines are burning oil and today’s machining practices are way too good to blame them. So it has to be using the wrong oil for reasons that seem to be solely aimed at fuel mileage.
One man opinion. And this is mine.
#7
03-25-2012, 03:18 PM
I haven't had my Saturn all that long, but changed the oil in it right after I first got it. I used Castrol 10W-30 in it and have about 2,000 miles on it now. It's only about a pint low. Now, I was told this engine had been rebuilt before I got the car and that it had somewhere around 100,000 miles on it, but no documentation. The body of the car has 297,000 miles on it now. The transmission slips a little between 2nd and 3rd gear and I've changed the fluid and filter, but to no avail. If it craps out, then so be it, but I'll try to find a transmission kit and rebuild this one if I can. I like the 35-39 mpg we get out of this car and would like to keep it a while. Oil consumption isn't that big a deal. Just check your frigging oil once per week to be on the safe side.
#8
03-26-2012, 09:33 AM
Im to the point I have to check my oil daily. Ive gone 1600 miles on one change of oil and added 1.5 qts to keep it full.
my friends are starting to tell me when i shift you see a blue puff lol
my friends are starting to tell me when i shift you see a blue puff lol
