Engine power reduced and a plethra of codes
#1
08-08-2023 | 01:19 AM
Thread Starter
|
Junior Member
Joined: Aug 2023
Posts: 10
Engine power reduced and a plethra of codes
New to me 08 Aura with the 3.5L and 176k. It had a cracked radiator so I replaced it along with the cooling fans and overflow tank as it was leaking from the bottom. Car ran just fine for an hour drive. cleaned the MAF with MAF cleaner and went to get gas the next day and filled it up, started the car and immediately got hit with reduced engine power, service esc, service tpms,. Pulled codes and got P0641,0106, 0107,0452. Im new to GM and have no idea what im looking for. Ive checked for crunched wires and made sure the terminals on the batt were good. Any help would be appreciated.
#2
08-08-2023 | 09:18 AM
Super Moderator
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 11,010
From: Slightly off center
1) I'll describe the codes in a second. First of all, check to make sure that the MAF sensor wiring got plugged back in firmly when you were finished cleaning it. Also, very carefully inspect the wiring pigtail connector for breaks in the wiring. Trace the wiring back to where it joins the nearest harness.
This one is kind of odd because this engine has both a MAP and a MAF. You stated you cleaned the MAF, but two of the codes are specific to the MAP.
Might you have unplugged the MAP pigtail and forgotten to reattach it?
Basically, sensors are connected to receive a 5 volt reference signal from the ECU and then respond with an output voltage that is usually something lower than 5 volts. These 5v references sent to the sensors are connected in parallel with each other So if one of them does not get the five volt signal, it means there is a break in the 5 volt circuit or one of the sensors is malfunctioning and one or more sensors are not receiving the required reference voltage. The ECU interprets this as an open circuit.
Many times it takes a few key on key off cycles for the ECU to decide if funky data it has collected is real or just a fluke. You probably hit the number of keyons to set the codes as opposed to them being considered pending.
One of the MAP codes states the response voltage is below the acceptable minimum voltage.
Hence my first thought is that you unplugged the MAP and forgot to plug it back in.
Please check your work and let us know.
We've all done it....
This one is kind of odd because this engine has both a MAP and a MAF. You stated you cleaned the MAF, but two of the codes are specific to the MAP.
Might you have unplugged the MAP pigtail and forgotten to reattach it?
Basically, sensors are connected to receive a 5 volt reference signal from the ECU and then respond with an output voltage that is usually something lower than 5 volts. These 5v references sent to the sensors are connected in parallel with each other So if one of them does not get the five volt signal, it means there is a break in the 5 volt circuit or one of the sensors is malfunctioning and one or more sensors are not receiving the required reference voltage. The ECU interprets this as an open circuit.
Many times it takes a few key on key off cycles for the ECU to decide if funky data it has collected is real or just a fluke. You probably hit the number of keyons to set the codes as opposed to them being considered pending.
One of the MAP codes states the response voltage is below the acceptable minimum voltage.
Hence my first thought is that you unplugged the MAP and forgot to plug it back in.
Please check your work and let us know.
We've all done it....
Last edited by derf; 08-08-2023 at 11:48 PM.
#3
08-08-2023 | 09:23 AM
Thread Starter
|
Junior Member
Joined: Aug 2023
Posts: 10
I'll recheck the wiring today and see. I never unplugged the MAP but it is very loose sitting up there. I also just think it's strange this happened after getting gas. One of those codes is for EVAP, do you think the fill up sent the pressure sensor out too?
#4
08-08-2023 | 11:22 AM
Super Moderator
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 11,010
From: Slightly off center
Without knowing what sensors are connected in what order on which bus as there are multiple buses, it's impossible to tell right now. I don't have any literature on the aura so I don't know how things are wired.
I have a hard time believing getting gas would cause a pressure sensor failure, but anything is possible. Did you feel past the initial click off of the pump? You really can't do that these days as gas ends up in vacuum lines as a liquid where it's supposed to be vapor. I suppose something like that would screw up the pressure reading if it were to occur. Again that is all speculation.
If you have a scanner that has enough capability to look at the pids, you can likely check and see what that pressure sensor is reading. Same with the MAF and same with the MAP. Since they are p codes, I believe you would find them as pids under the standard OBD2 pids as opposed to manufacturer's codes. But your scanner has to be able to display real time data.
I was hoping for a simple fix before going this route. They always check the last thing you did approach.
You will probably need a wiring diagram to figure out which wire is the 5 volt reference going to all these sensors, but if you can discern which sensor is misbehaving, you can avoid back probing all that stuff. Hopefully. Plus that signal is critical to the operation of many many things so it's best not to perturb it unless you have to or the 5V wiring to a sensor is actually the problem.
I always leave evap codes last when diagnosing unless I have reason to believe it is the direct cause. A wiring diagram is pretty much critical in this case to see what order the sensors are connected. You can make up for that with the real time data check in terms of what is not functioning properly
But then the question comes down to is the component or sensor itself the problem or is it not getting the reference signal....
Where are you located? I'm unemployed and bored.
I have a hard time believing getting gas would cause a pressure sensor failure, but anything is possible. Did you feel past the initial click off of the pump? You really can't do that these days as gas ends up in vacuum lines as a liquid where it's supposed to be vapor. I suppose something like that would screw up the pressure reading if it were to occur. Again that is all speculation.
If you have a scanner that has enough capability to look at the pids, you can likely check and see what that pressure sensor is reading. Same with the MAF and same with the MAP. Since they are p codes, I believe you would find them as pids under the standard OBD2 pids as opposed to manufacturer's codes. But your scanner has to be able to display real time data.
I was hoping for a simple fix before going this route. They always check the last thing you did approach.
You will probably need a wiring diagram to figure out which wire is the 5 volt reference going to all these sensors, but if you can discern which sensor is misbehaving, you can avoid back probing all that stuff. Hopefully. Plus that signal is critical to the operation of many many things so it's best not to perturb it unless you have to or the 5V wiring to a sensor is actually the problem.
I always leave evap codes last when diagnosing unless I have reason to believe it is the direct cause. A wiring diagram is pretty much critical in this case to see what order the sensors are connected. You can make up for that with the real time data check in terms of what is not functioning properly
But then the question comes down to is the component or sensor itself the problem or is it not getting the reference signal....
Where are you located? I'm unemployed and bored.
#5
08-08-2023 | 11:41 AM
Thread Starter
|
Junior Member
Joined: Aug 2023
Posts: 10
I live in Oklahoma City. So I rechecked all the plugs and they are secure. Checked for the 5v at the MAF and MAP. The MAF shows 5v but the MAP shows 1.5 from the plug. So I'm assuming the wiring to the MAP might me messed up somewhere. Sounds like a headache tracing wires. Also my OBD keeps disconnecting and it won't let me clear the codes. I wonder if that's a fuse?
#7
08-08-2023 | 01:26 PM
Super Moderator
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 11,010
From: Slightly off center
You didn't mention the other three were pending but they will very likely become official codes.
Again we are going to need a schematic to figure out the 5 volt reference signal path to each of the sensors on the A circuit
Again we are going to need a schematic to figure out the 5 volt reference signal path to each of the sensors on the A circuit
#10
08-08-2023 | 11:45 PM
Super Moderator
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 11,010
From: Slightly off center
Found this. 2008 aura but with the 2.4. not sure it is correct for the 3.5 but I can't see the wiring being conceptually different.
THe picture is very low resolution so if you expand it it is even harder to read. Probably easier with a magnifying glass.
First, the sensors received 5 volt references in parallel, not in series which is what I thought but not what I read. I'll go back and fix that.
From the diagram the fuel tank pressure sensor, MAP, and apparently the throttle position sensor A share a 5 volt reference signal.
The low map voltage code would imply that the map may not be getting the five volt reference.
The EVAP code for the fuel tank pressure sensor would also possibly indicate the same is true for that sensor. One should not affect the other. I'm surprised you did not get a throttle position sensor code.
So now that we have confirmed they are on the same reference circuit, you are going to have to read real time data or measure the 5 volt reference signal at or near the sensor. I believe the fuel pressure sensor is mounted on top of the tank which is a pain in the *** but if you can backprobe the wires leading up to it....
Come to think of it, you are in limp mode. This is often triggered when the two throttle position circuits do not return the same throttle position measurement to the ECU. Per the diagram it is possible that a portion of your ECU is damaged and is not putting out the 5 volt reference signal to those sensors in the diagram.
Time to get out the voltmeter and check the reference voltage lines.
Can't upload the picture because it is in some whack file format that the forum will not accept
THe picture is very low resolution so if you expand it it is even harder to read. Probably easier with a magnifying glass.
First, the sensors received 5 volt references in parallel, not in series which is what I thought but not what I read. I'll go back and fix that.
From the diagram the fuel tank pressure sensor, MAP, and apparently the throttle position sensor A share a 5 volt reference signal.
The low map voltage code would imply that the map may not be getting the five volt reference.
The EVAP code for the fuel tank pressure sensor would also possibly indicate the same is true for that sensor. One should not affect the other. I'm surprised you did not get a throttle position sensor code.
So now that we have confirmed they are on the same reference circuit, you are going to have to read real time data or measure the 5 volt reference signal at or near the sensor. I believe the fuel pressure sensor is mounted on top of the tank which is a pain in the *** but if you can backprobe the wires leading up to it....
Come to think of it, you are in limp mode. This is often triggered when the two throttle position circuits do not return the same throttle position measurement to the ECU. Per the diagram it is possible that a portion of your ECU is damaged and is not putting out the 5 volt reference signal to those sensors in the diagram.
Time to get out the voltmeter and check the reference voltage lines.
Can't upload the picture because it is in some whack file format that the forum will not accept
Last edited by derf; 08-09-2023 at 12:58 AM.